Amy Mindell Interviewed by Fukuda-San

Holistic Health Center, Yojoen, Japan, Nov. 1990

(This interview took place at a holistic health center in the mountains of Japan just after Amy and I gave a workshop there on addictions and relationship work, The interviewer, Fukuda-San, is the director of this center and has many many years of training in Zen meditation practice. This interview is a fascinating discussion about Process Work and its relationship to healing, Eastern philosophy and religion. By the way, you'll notice that P.O.P, is the way in which the Japanese always refer to Process Work, I transcribed this interview from an audio tape. It has also been published in Japan in Japanese, —Amy Mindell)

F ukuda: Could you explain what P.O.P. is in a very simple manner, in general terms?

Amy: Yes, Process Work is originally an extension of Jungian psychology. In its original development, at first, it tried to find out the meaning of body symptoms. Then, very shortly after I began to study body symptoms, I discovered that all body problems, when they are experienced and amplified, create experiences which mirror those we find in dreams.

So that means that the dream world is trying to dream through the body. By helping people to experience their symptoms we found that they were getting the same information that they got from dreams. This was about 1970. Then we found that many body symptoms were relieved when people began to live the messages in the body symptoms.

But, when people went back into their relationships outside of therapy the symptoms came back again. We realized that we had to incorporate knowledge of relationship work and understand how body symptoms appear in body signals. And then we found that people felt better and their symptoms disappeared in relationships but, when they went to work or to groups, their symptoms reappeared. So we realized we also had to teach people something about group work.

So very briefly, today Process Work includes body work with symptoms, creative dance, relationship work, group work and large group work, inner work, work with near death situations, and work with psychotic states. All of this is based upon the

principle that what is happening has a lot of potential meaning. So that's a very brief introduction.

F: You said you can alleviate body symptoms by living the experiences of the body. Through my experiences I understand to a certain extent what you mean, but I want to know why such alleviation happens.

A: Think of a man that I talk about in one of my books. This is a man with cancer of the stomach. He had a large tumor in his stomach wall. It was removed and the second time he was operated on they decided they couldn't do anymore; it had spread all over him. When I asked him to experience the stomach tumor, to make the story short, he said it was something that was growing and growing and trying to explode. Now, this was a very introverted man. He never exploded about anything. So, I helped him to learn how to explode; to express his feelings to his wife.

But the fascinating thing is that he said, "Oh, this experience of exploding is what I dreamed about. In the dream everything was exploding and it was independence day." And in the dream this would heal him.

So, I helped him get the message from his dream and from his tumor. This helped him improve in spite of the fact that he was, apparently, a hopeless case.

Now if we take this example and ask why that happened, a magical healer or witch doctor would say that a bad spirit had been put away. It seems to me, though, empirically, that the body was simply dreaming and if you get the message of that dream, you feel better. From this viewpoint the body is not simply pathological; it is a dream trying to happen.

F: When you say dream, does that mean the unconscious self?

A: When I say dream I mean fantasies, feelings, spontaneous experiences in the world around us, accidental movements, all of which are trying to balance our one-sidedness. You could say that our central illness is not being whole, not being complete. Our most serious illness is not being whole, complete, or balanced.

F: I didn't quite understand when you said that the most serious illness is that you are not balanced.

A: That means, we identify ourselves with one part of our personality, but all the other parts we neglect like the man who was very introverted and was shy about exploding.

F: I also believe that everything happening to the body has a meaning. Pains and trouble I think are sort of a warning. For example, imbalance in diet, lack of exercise, stress - behind these ailments I think are problems, like relationship problems.

A: Behind which problems?

F: For example, when you say unbalanced diet some people tend to eat sweets or are alcoholic. But behind these phenomena lies problems in relationships for

example. So unless you work on relationships you can't change your dietary habits. Do you understand?

A: Yeah, I completely agree.

F: But getting back to body symptoms, you say "you live the experiences of the body". I think that is really fascinating. It really alleviates the body. It's been my experience too that that actually happens.

A: It's happened so many thousands of times to us all around the world. We now think that that's truly a cross cultural discovery.

The great problem is that once you discover the message in the body symptom, since the message is bringing up something which could make us more whole, the problem is how we can encourage the person to accept the message. Those people who can accept the message and make the changes to become more whole have almost miraculous experiences. Other people who have more trouble accepting the messages have a tendency to prolong their symptoms.

Sometimes integrating messages can even have miraculous effects. An example is a man that Amy and I worked with the day he was dying. He was in a coma when we began to work with him. He came out of his coma and had kidney failure. So his stomach was all blown up, his body was full of water. How could there be a message in this? But he was so close to death, he was very close to dreaming. So, he said to us, "Oh, I know what my big problem is." And Amy and I said, "Well what's the problem?" He said "My problem is that the bottle is too small for the spirit inside of it!"

So from all my bodywork experience I said, "Well, that's not going to be a problem, let's let the cork out!" He said, "Where is the coik?" Since he had something in his throat he went "uhhvkkhh, cckkuhu." So I said, "The body is now answering that the cork is in the throat. Now, let's take the cork out of the throat and see what happens!"

So this was about 4 o'clock in the morning in the Kantonspital in Zurich and he began to take the cork out and sing. In fact he sang and almost started screaming. It was a celebration! Really funny! And as he screamed he began to urinate!

You see, his body was like a big bottle which couldn't let anything out. His letting the spirit out somehow relieved his kidney failure. So he could pass water and his body began to resume its normal shape as he began to sing and celebrate life.

That story goes on further but I just mention it now in connection with dreams and body symptoms and the sometimes almost miraculous effects that come from picking up the messages.

F: That means, any human being is trying to live the wholeness either consciously or unconsciously.

A: That's beautiful, that's right. We can't afford to be unconscious. And so, our method is something like homeopathy. Homeopathy gives a little more of the same symptom. This is a kind of psychological homeopathy.

F: If human beings are the ones who aim towards wholeness, why do they try to hurt their health and block their will to live their wholeness?

A: Well only one part is heading towards wholeness. You could say our totality is aiming towards wholeness. But our education and our consciousness are usually aiming only at cultural behavior. So, we don't find encouragement to live special parts of ourselves. And frequently many of our relationships don't support our wholeness but only our one-sidedness. That's why some of the central factors in healing are a good relationship that supports your whole personality and the creation of an environment which is interested in your whole self.

F: I'd like to know from your experiences - about a Japanese expression which means being considerate, it usually means using your chi.

A: Really? (giggles)

F: What do others expect of me whether at work or in the family? I think this using of chi is a contrary usage in Japan. That's why some are alcoholic. They use their chi too much and then become alcoholic and get nervous and have negative relationships and hurt their health.

So there is a positive meaning and a negative meaning when you say exercise, use your chi. Positive meaning is being considerate. Negative meaning is you are too nervous, self-conscious. In this workshop there was a man who was talking about his real estate business.

A: Yeah, I remember him.

F: He devoted himself to work. That was something good. Working hard. Or there was the young guy who had the eye operation who was very conscious of what other people thought of his eye. Tliere is more emphasis on what other people expect you to do than being the way you are.

A: Well, let's look at the first man from our seminar here, the real estate agent, the one with the stomach cramp. He followed that cramp and found a quiet center. So, if we understand the word chi, as your spontaneous body energy and power... would you say that's...

F: Inner energy.

A: Yes, inner energy, good. If we say that he should follow his chi, then actually following the chi requires a great deal of awareness. So sometimes his chi is into business. But if he's really close to following his chi energy then he would notice when it no longer wants to do business but just wants to sit quietly. But since he has no support in himself or in his relationships about being quiet, this particular man developed a stomach cramp. We could say in a way, that his inner energy had switched and had become quiet and still but he couldn't follow it, he couldn't make the switch.

So when we asked him to follow the stomach cramp, you may remember, the stomach cramp turned into becoming a rock. That means just being still and quiet.

Following the chi energy is really a masterful job. It is a matter of developing and training awareness. So the idea of following your chi is right, but the question is learning how to do it. Chi can change so quickly.

In the martial arts, one of the ancient texts says you can win by learning the skills but true excellence happens by following what's called the hidden chi. Hidden chi are the sudden changes in your inner eneigy. This is one way of understanding it at least.

F: It's good if chi energy comes up very spontaneously from within. But when we use the expression "using the chi in a negative way" it means that when somebody else is around you modify your response to the other person in such a way that the other person feels better.

A: Thank you for telling me that. According to my understanding of chi, that's only one part of the chi. The hidden chi may be going inside and not even wanting to look or talk to anybody.

F: In P.O.P. you put an emphasis on awareness. In that case, do you mean you put an emphasis on awareness of something that comes from within? Inner process?

A: Yes, we have a very differentiated idea about awareness. A very detailed idea. We talk about awareness proprioceptively. What are you feeling in your body? We talk about awareness in movement. How are you moving? What's happening to you? We talk about awareness visually. What are you fantasizing? What are you dreaming? We talk about auditory awareness. Who are you talking to in your head? And we talk about world awareness. What is happening in the environment that wasn't expected? So we encourage our students to develop awareness in all these various areas.

F: When you say awareness, what is aware of these things? I don't think it's intellectual awareness, but what is aware? Something inner? Something whole is aware of what's happening?

A: That's a very deep question and a very good one. When we talk about awareness there are at least two levels of awareness. One level is the sensory grounded awareness. This goes on all the time. We are always feeling, always seeing. That is the basic awareness every human being has all the time. But being conscious of these different channels of awareness is a very special awareness. We refer to it as consciousness. In Zen or in India you might call that the fair witness. That means that somebody inside of you notices - now I'm feeling this, now my chi is manifesting in this kind of experience in my body; now something wants to explode in my stomach or become a rock; now I can choose to follow that or not. So that's just briefly about the psychology of awareness.

F: In traditional Zen and Vipassana, in certain postures you focus your awareness

on physical sensations or you are aware of your breath, breathing. There is a difference between noticing what your hand is feeling, for example, and focusing your attention on physical sensations. That is I think, what you mean by awareness.

A: That's right, this is a form of Vipassana. Very right, absolutely. The only difference between Process Work and Vipassana is that in the Vipassana attitude there is usually the thought - "well, this is happening now, let it go." That's very nice. But in Process Work we say this is happening now, let's use it. The goal is the same. To be open and empty. One way is to use the garbage and the other is to throw it out. And whatever is right depends upon the individual. We prefer to use it because it gives you so much energy. It's like recycling the garbage.

F: So what's happening now has a meaning?

A: Yes, we believe in what's happening. It could bring us something.

F: You just said goal. What's the goal of P.O.P.? In Zen the goal might be enlightenment.

A: Yes, the same is with Process Work.

F: In Zen, enlightenment is considered the relationship between the individual and nature.

A: Beautiful.

F: In P.O.P you said it has to do with relationships?

A: One aspect of Process Work is relationships. Anotheris body experience. Another aspect is fantasy, and another aspect is the world and the universe. But it is true, relationships play a very important role.

F: What is the goal?

A: The goal is very similar to Zen. We had this exciting conversation with this Zen roshi from the the Tofukuji monastery. He said that Zen leads to "no mind" or "creative mind" or "free mind." To become what is happening. He said to me, "Oh my god, you are doing Zen." Because the goal is that through awareness of what happens you get closer to the river of change. By noticing changes you get closer to being capable of changing yourself. So you become like the river of time. But this is simply what the taoists and the Zen roshi called "creative mind".

There are many ways up the mountain; many paths up the mountain. If you have body symptoms, then Process Work could be an interesting path. Or holistic medical procedures.

F: Very interesting. In terms of relationships, what is it?

A: Let's say Amy and I disagree about something. If I am really open, then I would know that I am her. I am Amy as well as Amy. That would mean that I have her feelings towards me. I feel the way she feels about me. If she loves me, I need to learn how to love me. If she disagrees with me, its good to have an argument, but it's also good to realize that I disagree with myself. That's one aspect of Zen in relationship.

Another aspect would be to notice that I am sitting with her and I'm leaning back. So why not lean back and relax. That's going with the river of time. Those are two little examples. Good questions!

F: That's great, (laughs)

A: It's really true.

F: Whether you are doing group work or individual work, by working with something you deepen the whole personality of the person.

A: To work with someone depends upon the individual, the relationship or the group. It depends upon the situation. So for example, with a group, Process Work means bringing out what is unconscious in the group, so that the group can be more iwhole. A business group that is very stiff usually drinks a lot and has a lot of sexual stuff in the background. So that means getting them to relax more while they are working. Working with a couple means finding out what they are doing that they are not conscious of like sitting back and relaxing. Working with an individual is the same. Finding out what's unconscious and helping the person become more whole.

F: More completely, whether you do group work or individual work, what do you pay attention to, signals or movements?

A: So let's take an individual. When I work with an individual I listen closely to the things that she doesn't identify with. So she will say, "People look at me as if I'm strange." So that means that that's an unconscious attitude that she has about herself. I watch how she walks. If she has a fast walk or a little skip in the walk then we encourage that to come out. Or if she makes certain body signals while we are talking, I follow that, or postures, or the tone of voice, or what she is dreaming or her body symptoms. Then we try to bring those things out and help her conscious mind accept the message.

F: The kind of bodywork you showed, for example, today, did you develop that yourself?

A: What bodywork is that?

F: Anything. Like how to catch body signals.

A: Uh huh. The movement work I've developed myself. The kind of body work that brings out the body cramps I have developed myself but I feel I've learned a great

deal from everybody else. I've studied a lot of different body therapies, psychothera-pies, and martial arts, and so I've learned from them and use those things as they come up in the work.

F: What do you mean by the martial arts? Could you give me examples?

A: For example, when I'm doing movement work with somebody, I make a special attempt to stay close to my own center. This is a very simple idea and because of this I never get hurt. We encourage people to move and express themselves. It's possible to trip, for example, or get scratched. So learning to stay on your own center is helpful.

F: Have you experienced Zen and meditation?

A: A little bit. I know something about it but I'm just a novice.

F: How about Taoism?

A: Taoism I know a lot about, I think. It's been very helpful to me. Hmm. I dreamed when I began this work that Lao Tse came alive again and he was opening up a new printing press. And that's why I started writing!

F: Ohh! (giggles)

A: So, you could say that this is a kind of rebirth of Taoism. In a way, nothing is really new. We're just learning how to use the old principles in a useful way again.

F: How do you consider Taoism? What do you think about it?

A: What do I think about Taoism? What a question! A great question. Maybe you want to be more specific.

F: Talk about the flow in P.O.P. Is it very close to the idea of the natural flowing Tao?

A: Yeah. In the / Ching for example, the Tao manifests itself in terms of man, heaven and earth. That's the basic trigram of the / Ching. So those are the channels. So, in Process Work, the more modem idea of following the Tao means following the flow of energy as it appears in various channels.

F: Is that how you developed the idea of "process-oriented"?

A: Well, the concept of process-oriented comes in connection with Taoism and my studies in theoretical physics and the flow of energy in physics. It's a combination of these two things. I was originally a physicist.

F: Why are you a therapist now?! (they both laugh) 30

A: Because I started out in physics but I got bored. Physics is exciting but it doesn't have enough to do with people, And I was always fascinated by people. I love people. So that's why I switched. But my physics studies have been very helpful to me in putting parts together, (giggle) Great questions!! It's an unusual interview!

F: During today's work, towards the end, you mentioned that it would be great if we had good therapists, but sometimes these therapists are not available/especially good ones are not available. From some point in Zen, it's an Eastern tradition to go into it through a basic form. That's the concept. In Eastern tradition the form needs a posture. Like a posture in dance movements. Kata. Go into it through a form. In P.O.P. what do you think about the form?

A: It think it's very important. The whole study of learning how to work on yourself alone in all the psychotherapies isn't very well developed. But a first step in that direction is this book called Working on Yourself Alone (1990). Here there are certain mental postures that are recommended, certain attitudes that you should use to begin with. One of them is simply asking yourself a question: "What am I experiencing now and in what channel am I experiencing things?" Then we recommend to people to notice what they are feeling, hearing, or seeing, and then to begin to amplify the experiences as they happen in those channels. Then whatever else happens the process itself will show the way.

F: In your everyday life, how have you been practicing based on what you've said?

A: I don't practice anything anymore. But, practice has become a habit.

F: Before how were you practicing?

A: I did practice exactly using this inner work method and then after a while it became a habit. It's like Vipassana. And you feel uncomfortable when you're not doing it. You know? So when I wake up in the night the first thing I automatically notice is which nostril I am breathing out of. It's just such a pleasure, and I move my head always to the side that gives that nostril free breath. And when I get up in the night I notice which foot goes forward first. Being conscious is such an incredible pleasure that after a while unconsciousness feels bad. But this is known, I think, to everyone that practices some form of meditation.

F: Isn't it that at a certain point you go inside too much because you are doing awareness practice and not paying attention to people around you?

A: Just the opposite. In our form of awareness, I'm always inside. But, when I'm with you, my awareness sees you. I see your hair is going over your back, and you're sitting forward and so my awareness is now in relationship. I also notice how I'm feeling inside my chest. There's no inner and no outer anymore. There's just awareness. Except others would call it relationship. It usually makes everything richer and it makes conversations shorter (laughter.)

But I don't want to give the impression that I'm finished and cooked because in Process Work you can never be completely cooked. There's always something new which comes up and throws you into unconsciousness.

F: Sounds dynamic.

A: Yeah, that's what the Zen roshi said. He had this beautiful idea that once you finish ybur basic training you begin your second training. It's a special training in Zen, he said, which leads to the Zen master idea. And it's life that does it

F: And that's what you are doing?

A: That's right. All of us interested in therapy and Zen are doing very similar things.

F: What is death to you?

A: Do you mean what do I think of death or how do I work with death?

F: What do you think of death?

A: My personal view?

F: Yes.

A: Hmm. (sits quietly) I have several views about that. One is the empirical view that I have seen in other people. And that is that the inner personality has no respect for death. It just goes on living. Right at the point of death, people tell me they are going to go on learning. They don't talk about death.

But what I personally think about death is that it becomes less important to me the more I know myself. My identity is beginning to slowly change. Now I'm 50. So my identity is beginning to connect to essential things in my life. Sometimes it has to do with serving other people and opening up to whatever wants to happen.

But the more I open up to that, the more I realize that I am no longer located only in my own body. These are goals which go over thousands of years. So I realize there are things that I would like to do in the 90 years I have to live, but I'm really not in a rush because I realize that what I want to do is something that takes thousands of years to complete. So those are feelings I have about death. I don't think I've ever been in an interview like this before! It's a great one!

F: What do you think about Christianity? The concept of God.

A: I think Christianity is wonderful for people who feel they are Christian. I have Christian moods. So I have a process-oriented view toward religion. Sometimes I am a Christian and I think God is out there. At other points I am a Buddhist. I know Buddha is in me.

F:Oohh.

A: Sometimes I feel like an African witch doctor because then I feel the spirits moving in the skies. So I think people have moods and processes of certain religions. Just like I was born in America but I have Japanese processes in me.

F: What do you think about Jung, himself?

A: I loved him. He has been my main inner guru. I feel I couldn't do anything if he hadn't done his work. We're all part of the stream of history somehow. He could do so much in his life and I can do a little bit. You do a little bit and we continue to expand and differentiate awareness.

F: What's the future direction of P.O.P.?

A: If it's good, then it will continue. And if it's not, if it's not able to do what it wants to do, it should collapse. In the moment it's becoming popular in the United States, Africa, and India, Australia, Russia, Europe and Poland (there's a psychosomatic clinic based on it there). It looks like, for the moment, it's a useful idea. Whatever the future wants I feel is going to be right for it. I'm ready for it to go forwards or to collapse.

F: I hope that we can establish a center in Japan.

A: Thank you. We fantasized about that sitting in a cafe in Kyoto, as there's so much of it that seems like it is really coming from Japanese philosophy, close to Oriental ideas.

F: Thank you very much.

A: Thank you very much. My god, that was a marvelous interview! That was a very unusual interview. And that was because you have an interest in philosophy and in chi and martial arts and Zen and modern medicine. So therefore you pulled out of me more than I would say in a normal interview.

F: I think true healing lies in raising the chi and reducing stressful factors and bad nutrition. And from a lack of exercise. That's why I established this center.

A: It's a great idea and though there are many holistic centers around the world very few succeed in raising this chi and at the same time teaching good nutrition. So your center is a terrific idea. If we can be of help in any way it would be a pleasure.

F: It would be great to have P.O.P therapists. Concerning my private situation. I think I must deepen chi by listening to what you said today. I have been very much inspired to begin that.

A: That's beautiful, I'm very happy about that.